Read the audio transcript from the February 23, 2022 broadcast of The Ross Report broadcast
I want to welcome John Munsell to the Ross Report. Welcome, John. So good to have you.
Hi Carol. How are you? Thanks for having me.
I know this gets pretty complicated, but we need you to get to the basics. How did you get involved in this project and who are the folks developing this kind of immunity profile?
I have a friend in New Orleans that has been in the fulfillment end of some labs across the country. He called me in November and said he was working on a project with a really fascinating med tech firm and a pathology lab in Houston. He started to describe it for me, and I said, "Wow, that really sounds something that we could get behind". He said, "Let me give them a buzz and see if they want to talk to you".
The Med Tech firm is a company called Anzu and they are based in Arizona and the pathology lab is called Healix and they're in Houston. We became their third partner and we're helping bring the product to hospitals, clinics, and employers around the country. We make sure that they can get it out to either their employees or their community members.
So, this is something that measures immunity? How does it do that? You call it the first immunity management tool. How does it do that? I read the material and it is very scientific, very complicated. It just seems to have some really great applications.
Well, it's really basic. If we go back to the beginning, when they were developing the vaccines. They had to determine whether or not they would be effective in people. Interestingly enough, the University of Louisiana at Lafayette, aka right down the street UL, they worked on the research for I believe was the Pfizer vaccine.
In order to do that they had to create what are known as virus neutralization tests to test the blood. In this case, they were working with primates. They would test the blood and they would inject the blood with a virus. You have to do that with a hazmat suit and everything else. It's very complicated.
As they started to try to see, will it be efficacious on humans? They would do the same thing and what they noticed; your body produces these antibodies.
Your body produces neutralizing antibodies, binding antibodies and non-binding antibodies and the neutralizing antibodies are the ones that actually fight off the virus. If you think about it, the virus itself, is kind of this round ball. The outside of that virus are the antigens, those are proteins. But the one that everybody is familiar with is called the spike protein, right?
That spike protein attaches to your cell and that's how it infects the cell, starts to replicate itself and destroy things. But your body now detects this spike protein and the other proteins that are on the outside of that virus, and it starts to produce antibodies or what I would call counter proteins that would then attack. Some of these are binding antibodies and they bind to that virus and stop it from doing what it's trying to do.
Some of those binding antibodies are what they would call neutralizing antibodies. Those are the ones that attach and bind specifically to the front end of that spike protein, to block it from attaching to your cells.
The way to measure the efficacy of a vaccine or the efficacy of your own natural immunity is to determine what percentage of those neutralizing antibodies are efficacious against a specific antigen or protein. In this case, the spike protein. You're looking at all of your antibodies, which of these actually are going to take the blow and keep this thing from infecting you and what percentage that is, is a real determinant about how effective you're going to be in fighting off the virus.
So, the vaccine itself, according to your literature, is a way to trick the body into producing these neutralizing antibodies to fight the virus. But what about when you get the virus, then what happens? You develop antibodies that way too, right?
Yes, same basic thing. If you go back to the earlier vaccines, what they do is they inject your body with essentially a harmless or at least relatively harmless version of the virus to get your body to go, you don't belong here and a device to fight it off.
In this particular case, the mRNA vaccine, injects your body with mRNA which basically produces information to communicate to your cells to now create their own spike protein. Then your body goes, "Wait a minute, these spike proteins aren't supposed to be here". Then that produces the neutralizing antibodies to stop that spike protein. Instead of injecting you with the virus, they're injecting you with something that tells your body to create the thing that the virus is going to have.
Your body can create those neutralizing antibodies?
Correct. Which is why they say it's better to get vaccinated than it is to wait around until you get the virus, right? Because once you get the virus then you have a mess on your hands. Some people can handle it but some people cannot. That's why you have hospitalizations and deaths.
If you go back to the beginning, the whole point of this was to minimize hospitalizations and deaths. So, they created this vaccine to do that.
But in the meantime, while they're creating the vaccine, a whole lot of us, me included, got the virus. So, our bodies just kind of went into the mode of, what is this, we're going to try to fight it off.
Once your body starts creating these neutralizing antibodies, and it works, then your T cells and B cells now know when this particular protein comes near again, they know exactly what to produce. After a while, your body says, the threat is gone. I don't need to produce these antibodies anymore. Little by little, the antibodies basically dissolve. They kind of just burn off.
The vaccine itself is, is created to essentially self-destruct to so that your body doesn't constantly produce these antibodies. That's why they say your antibodies wane over time because your body doesn't want to produce them all the time. It slows that down.
There's been so much argument, I've heard it once, I've heard it a million times. One supposed, expert says the vaccine works better. The other one says, natural immunity. Some, if you've had the virus, the antibodies protect you better. But they both still wane after time, correct?
Correct. But everybody's different. Everybody is different and that's why it's important to measure your own unique antibody levels. Once it stops, it doesn't necessarily mean that you're no longer immune, because now your body knows what to do.
The question, how long that takes before it wanes?
For instance, we've tested a couple of guys that were in their 20s and they'd never had a positive PCR test. They never had any symptoms, and yet, their neutralizing antibodies were in the 90% range. They clearly had it.
And there wasn't even any evidence that they'd been exposed. There’s a different protein in the virus called the N one, or the nucleocapsid protein, and your body creates an M one protein to cut it that's not in the vaccine.
If there's a presence of an N one protein in your body that tells us that you actually have been infected or exposed before whereas if you don't, and you have antibodies, the odds are it's either been a long time since you were exposed, or you got the vaccine. That's how you tell the difference.
At the end of the day, your body, whether you get the vaccine or whether you get the virus, you're producing the same thing to fight it and we've had people who hold their antibodies. We have one guy who was vaccinated literally one year ago, and he had the same level of antibodies as he did almost the day that he got the vaccine. Whereas another guy dropped off 60 to 70%.
I'm listening to how you can target with this new device or program. The CDC is trying to put out information that blankets across all age groups, all ethnic groups, all levels of health, etc. Trying to come up with something that is a norm. There's no normative here, is there?
Everything boils down to averages when you're trying to make a recommendation to the public, right? You have all these tests, and what everybody's antibodies looks like if you average all these people out, they're going to wane in about 120 days and so you're going to need to get a booster shot in 120 days.
Some of this research is going to be coming out as you know, the CDC has been a little less than transparent with some of their information. They'll release a study for Kentucky, but they don't release the rest of the states. It's kind of confusing.
You don't know who to believe but I do believe my own tests, right?
We had a guy who within six months was below 30%. The FDA says 30% is protective. He was below 30% after six months, but another guy after 12 months was still in the 90% range. He had the Maderna vaccine, so is held up really nicely. If you give him a booster, first, it's going to be wasted. And second, it may actually be risky. You may be overloading his system and creating a problem that you didn't need to create. He should really sit back. But other people who were in this lower range maybe they ought to consider it. And if you have natural immunity, and you're in that upper range, I wouldn’t bother.
They see that people who have been previously infected and then have a single vaccine, not even double vaccinated, they're protected more than somebody who has been triple vaccinated.
Showing that how each person can be specifically profiled by your program by exactly what you're recommending here. I think that's interesting and I think it would come in handy for employers especially.
Don't go away. We're talking to John Munsell about your immunity profile. We'll be right back.
Welcome back to the Ross Report. We're talking to John Munsell about your immunity profile. Three companies have come together, Anzu, Healix Pathology, and you, Bizzuka and you're rolling out a test that each employee or each student or whatever can take and find their immunity profile.
It's a blood test so you have to go to a clinic. It could either be a finger stick or a venous blood draw.
You download our app, which is free in either the App Store or the Google Play, they open your test kit, you use the app to scan the barcode, that accessions you into the system and it identifies your sample with your results, they take your blood, slap that little barcode on the specimen, put in the FedEx envelope that we provide, send it back to our lab. And then in real time the lab processes and you'll get a notification of what your scores are.
The reason it goes back to a lab is because it takes some time. They'll take the blood, and they'll inject what's called a surrogate, that's why it's called virus neutralization test. They're going to inject it with a spike protein, then they're going to let it ferment. This is what I call it. They're going to find out how your blood responds and how your cells respond in terms of producing antibodies that block that particular thing and that's how they're able to generate a score.
That's why it's not a nose swab. This is almost 100% accurate, it's 99 to 100% accurate compared to what they call the gold standard, which is where they use a really live virus. But you couldn't really do that and scale.
Anyway, it produces a score and that comes to you on your app, and it shows you how immune you are or the strength of your immunity to the original version of COVID-19 plus the Delta variant plus the nucleocapsid protein. I just got word this morning they think Omicron is going to be available next week and you will see that on your app, too.
For employers or for school systems, who want to know this information about their employees, there's an immunity management system, which is a dashboard. If you authorize your employer, your information goes into that dashboard. It's a HIPAA compliant environment so nobody sees your name. They just see a hash mark. Only the person in the organization that has the HIPAA authorization can see who you are. This allows an employer to see everybody's immune profile. You only have to do this once every four to six months, but it allows them to see who's waning and who's strong.
It allows you as an individual to now know just how strong your immune system is. This allows you to make different choices, right? Especially as they start to remove some of these restrictions. There's a whole lot of people that are still scared to go out because they're scared to be around people but this gives you more information about your own personal strength, immune strength, so if you feel like going out, you can.
People who have diabetes who do the fingerstick tests, this would work for them? I mean, this kind of technology.
Yeah, sure people with COPD, immunocompromised, you'd want to know, right? I know organ transplant recipients who should know where they stand, especially if they have to fly or go whatever. You don't have to be afraid of everybody. As long as you know you've got the strongest Kevlar available, to protect you, right? Kevlar being the thing that makes it bulletproof. I'd want to know that I can take it.
In terms of costs, though, for an employer or a school system, that could get pretty costly, correct?
It could. It just depends on who's paying.
Will it be covered by Medicare?
Currently, no. They call these things investigatory, so they wouldn't necessarily cover it. I know that we are working with a couple of insurance companies to see if they would, because it's cheaper than in having a PCR test every week and the PCR test only tells you whether or not you have it at that current moment. You know, it's like TSA checking the people who enter the plane for heavy guns but only checking once a week.
Exactly. I can really see where this would be great. I think it'd be more efficacious for individuals to use something like this. If I had any kind of compromised situation. I think I would want to do something like this. If I had diabetes, just as I test my blood that way or if I had some compromising situation that could help me to learn how much immune I have and how immune my system is at any given time.
Yeah, absolutely. And because the waning is different for everybody, that's why they say you should only probably be retested every four months, but you can be confident. It doesn't really matter whether you're, immunocompromised. If you're getting ready to go fly on a plane, you might want to know how protected you are before you get on the plane with a bunch of people you don't know. It really applies to everybody, whether you're an individual or whether you're an employer trying to keep everybody safe on the rig or wherever.
We've got a company that we're working with right now, who does all the PCR testing for the chicken processing plants and the cattle processing plants, and they're about to roll this out across the state of Texas. There's a lot of applications for it
It's great. I checked out your website and it has a lot of great information, especially the section on the immunity blog. The research is great. The immunity blog where recent articles come out on specific topics; Why Neutralizing Antibody Testing is Key to Ending Pandemic Restrictions, It’s Time to Start Managing Immunity Rather than Vaccine Status. I like that one. This is great and another article, Do you Need a Booster. As you said, you could overload a system if you put too much. Which is why I think they do restrict the time between booster shots. They don't want to have them too close together. You could overload your system, etc. So, this would be a great tool to figure out if that's going on as well.
Yeah, it's way different from like an antibody test that you would go and grab at CVS, it's completely different. That just tells you whether or not you've got it. But it doesn't tell you whether they're going to be efficacious in terms of how you handle any of these variants.
You know, you have a part on here about when they were developing these vaccines, they had a sort of hold harmless for the vaccine makers. They were not going to be sued. You have a couple of articles on here that I want to talk about. We have to take a break for the for commercial break. We want to come back and ask you about this because this could have deep implications as well. COVID lawsuits and OSHA fines. That's interesting and how what you're talking about plays into that. We'll be right back on the Ross Report with John Munsell talking about your immunity profile.
John Munsell is still on the line with is talking about a new device to measure your immunity profile. On the website, Immunityprofile.com there's a blog section and one of them is about the next wave of COVID lawsuits and OSHA fines is coming. Explain that. How is this going to happen? What is this about?
Good question. Here's the thing, the lawsuits are already coming and so prolific that a huge law firm has even created a map. It's kind of like the COVID outbreak map. It shows hotspots all over the country. My feeling is that the new wave, the attorneys are out there and they're looking for ways to extract money. I know that's cold to say, but
Well, it's true.
But here's the thing. We were told all along that the only way out of this was through vaccination to the point where they said you either get vaccinated or you get fired. They continue to bifurcate the country into the vaccinated and the unvaccinated. The reality is, they should be separating the country into the immune and the non-immune.
They have found and even the CDC just a couple of weeks ago, confirmed with their own study. There have been 150 studies by the way that have confirmed this. Natural immunity is as strong if not stronger in many cases and more durable than vaccinated.
So therefore, there have been a lot of health care workers who were terminated who already had immunity. And now that the CDC has come out and says, guess what, natural immunity is a thing. Like it has been for the last 100,000, it is a thing and it's actually as strong as vaccinated immunity.
I think you're going to have a whole lot of attorneys going, wait a minute, you're still firing people? Isn't the goal to keep people in your organization that are immune? I think that's where you're going to have a lot of problems. You're going to have a lot of people saying I want my job back. You fired me and you didn't need to.
You didn't have cause and now we know you didn't have cause. And now we have proof. We've interviewed many lawyers; we've had a lot of the nurses and the folks who have protested against these vaccine mandates. Many of them were vaccinated, but they felt that the mandates were so unfair and illogical.
When you think about it, these people were working in the hospitals doing the job when there was no vaccine and working day after day. But now there's a vaccine, you want to fire them and demonize them because they don't want to get the vaccine because maybe they already had the virus and they really feel that they don't need it. Or if they had the vaccine, they just don't like the idea of a mandate.
This has really been used as such a wedge issue among people. When you have the President saying that you're causing all the trouble. You're the problem if you're not vaccinated. This is so wrong. It's on so many levels.
Yes, it is wrong.
I saw a chart this morning, it's the unvaccinated. I'm like mathematically that doesn't hold up. You got almost 77% of the country vaccinated. You can't have all of these infections caused by 25% of the people. Realistically, if you're already immune that should be enough, regardless of how you acquired that immunity. That should be enough.
In their defense, I will say this, the only thing they had available to them prior to this was just your standard IgG IgM antibody test. Which like I said, they just tell you have them. They don't tell you how strong your immunity is to it, they tell you, you have them. And that would be a question mark that somebody would potentially throw up. With ours, it actually tells you how immune you are. How strong you can resist this or how you're going to be able to fight it. The fact that you have neutralizing antibody should be enough for somebody to go, okay, you can be in the club too.
Well, they're so stuck and they won't hear anything else. It's really unfortunate and I wonder if they would even accept the evidence, you put in in front of them about the high level of immunities by a lot of people who've had the virus or maybe had the virus and the vaccine and they have a high level of immunity. I question whether they would even accept that right now.
They're just so stuck on vaccines, vaccines, and if you're not vaccinated. Look at what the truckers had to go through up in Canada and they're using that to bludgeoned people into submission. It's just it's so disturbing.
I hope your tool can be in some kind of way to help people who have had the vaccine and don't want the mandate or have had the virus and don't want the vaccine or the mandate. This could be a great tool for that.
Yeah, that's our goal. It's really just to let people know how safe or unsafe they are. Empower them to make decisions on their own. And, at least at a minimum, educate employers to say, look, your goal really should be about protecting everybody in your organization. If you're going to do that, then really focus on immunity, and help everybody in your organization uniquely and individually understand the strength of their immunity. Rather than then separate them into these two classes, which is just disastrous.
It really is insane. I like what you said in your in your blog, on the website. OSHA now is going to be empowered. They're upset, they didn't get that decision they wanted at the Supreme Court. They're going to be looking to go through your operation with a fine tooth comb, I think But this could be a tool to help keep those fines and lawsuits at bay and keep your employees safe. As you say, by embracing this immunity management rather than vaccine management. Immunity management. I think it's going to be a great tool.
How can people find out more? We've just scratched the surface here. There's so much to this, that you just can't get to.
The main thing we're looking for now is hospitals, clinics, and employers who want to have their employees tested or want to be a testing center. We need walk in clinics, hospitals. Anybody who's familiar with taking a blood specimen and can send it back to our lab. We have a lot of people going to our website and saying, where can I get this test done? We have to say, where do you live and then we try to find a testing center near them. Everything is on Immunityprofile.com.
The way that teachers have been fighting back against going to back to school live, this would be a great thing. This would tell them; you got the immunity? Don't worry. Go back to school.
It wouldn't make a lot of teachers feel safe if they knew their own protective immunity and you wouldn't have to worry about masking up the students and all that.
I think that’s child abuse.
Thank you, John Munsell, for talking to us about immunity profile. If you want more information about this, go to immunityprofile.com. This is groundbreaking stuff. I invite you to go to the website: https://www.immunityprofile.com/